MALE Thibaud

Count of Arles.

An ally of Hugues, son of Lothair II, Thibaud was married to Bertha, sister of Hugues, some time before 880, when he suffered a severe defeat at the hands of the enemies of Hugues ["Quo venientes, quia Hugonem non invenerunt, sororium illius Teutbaldum bello adgressi sunt, et multis interfectis, illum in fugam verterunt." Ann. Bertin., s.a. 880, 151; "In ipso etiam itinere Heinricus Teutbaldum filium Hucberti gravi devicit proelio." Ann. Vedast., s.a. 880, 47]. One source even places his death in that battle ["Thietbaldus, filius Huberti abbatis, occiditur ab Heinrico duce." Annales Laubienses, s.a. 880, MGH SS 4: 15]. However, Thibaud was still alive in June 887, when he appears in the charter of a certain Berterius ["inluster vir Teutbolt comite" Cart. Cluny, 1: 36 (#30)]. His death was probably not long after that, for the marriage of his widow to margrave Adalberto II of Tuscany probably occurred in the 890's.

Date of birth: Unknown.
Place of birth:
Unknown.

Date of death: After June 887.
Place of death: Unknown.

Father: Hubert, d. 864; abbot; duke between the Alps and the Jura.

Mother: Unknown.

Spouses:

(1) NN, possible earlier wife.
The existence of an earlier wife is not certain. However, the chronology of Thibaud's daughter Theutberge appears to require either that Thibaud had an earlier wife or that his marriage to Bertha was significantly earlier than it has generally been placed.

(2) m. before 880, Bertha, d. 8 March 925, daughter of Lothair II, king of Lorraine. She m. (2) Adalberto II, margrave of Tuscany.
This marriage is proven by charters of their son Hugo stating that his parents were named Thibaud and Bertha. See the page of
Bertha for further details.

Children:

possibly by an earlier wife:

FEMALE Theutberge, d. before September 948; m. Garnier, d. 924, viscount of Sens and count of Troyes.
Theutberge's relationship to Thibaud can be deduced from certain statements about relatives of her son Manassès (d. 962×3), archbishop of Arles. In September 948, archbishop Manassès gave a donation to Cluny in a charter in which he mentioned his father Garnier, mother Theutberge, and brothers Hugues, Richard, and Boso ["... ego Manases, indignus archiepiscopus, ... pater meus Vuarnerius ... pro remedio anime meæ, necnon et pro anima patris et matris meæ Teutberga, et fratrum meorum, Hugonis videlicet atque Richardi, Bosonis quoque et ceterorum omnium parentum meorum ..." Cart. Cluny, 1: 681-3 (#726)]. Also, in a charter of Saint-Victor de Marseille, dated 13 June 923, Manassès mentions his avunculus Hugues ["... Manasses, sancte Arelatensis ecclesie humilis archiepiscopus, ... avunculi nostri Hugonis, ..." Cart. S.-Victor Marseille, 1: 3 (#1)]. That this Hugues was the marquis of Provence, the later king of Italy, seems clear from another charter, of the emperor Louis the Blind, from 920, in which Louis (a second cousin of Hugues/Hugo of Provence/Italy) refers to Manassès as his propinquus ["Manasses snactæ Arelatensis ecclesiæ archiepiscopus, noster charissimus propinquus ..." RHF 9: 686 (#18)]. The presence of the names Theutberge, Hugues, and Boso in the family of Manassès also give strong onomastic support to the suggestion that the word avunculus should be interpreted by its classical meaning of maternal uncle, and that Theutberge was a sister of Hugues/Hugo, marquis of Provence and king of Italy. However, there is a chronological problem, pointed out by Gingins-La-Sarra, which complicates the attempt to make Theutberge a daughter of Bertha [Gingins-La-Sarra (1851-3), 9: 102]. Manassès became archbishop of Arles in about 915. If we assume that he was of the canonical age of thirty or more at the time, then he could not have been the grandson of a woman born in the early 860's, the time usually assigned for the birthdate of Bertha [e.g. Brandenburg (1964), 3; Werner (1967), table; Settipani (1993), 274; all make Theutberge a daughter of Bertha without mentioning the chronological problem indicated by Gingins-La-Sarra]. Nevertheless, if the birthdate of Bertha were placed at a still possible ca. 855, she could have had a daughter Theutberge born say 872, who could have had Manassès say about 889, who would be close enough to canonical age in 915 not to present a serious problem. However, we cannot be sure that such an extreme chronology for Bertha is correct, and the possibility remains that Theutberge was not a daughter of Bertha. Theutberge has also sometimes been identified with the woman of the same name who was the wife of a certain Engelbert (son of viscount Bérillon of Vienne and his wife Ermengarde), who has been placed as a second husband of Theutberge by some [Cart. Cluny, 1: 462 (#476), 509 (#523); Poupardin (1901), 353 and Hofmeister (1907), 419 for this identification; Werner (1967), 459, n. 17, 467, n. 41, against the identification]

by Bertha:

MALE Hugues/Hugo/Ugo, d. 10 April 947; count of Vienne; marquis of Provence; king of Italy, 926-947;
m. (1) 912, Willa,
perhaps the widow of Rudolf I, king of Burgundy.
m. (2) ca. 924, Hilda/Alda.
m. (3) ca. 932, Marozia,
daughter of Theophylakt, Roman senator.
m. (4) 12 December 937, Bertha,
daughter of Burchard, duke of Schwaben (Swabia), and widow of Rudolf II, king of Burgundy.
Hugo mentions has parents Thibaud and Bertha in charters. See the page of Bertha for details.

probably by Bertha:

MALE Boso, d. after 936; count of Avignon, 911-931; count of Arles, 926-931; margrave of Tuscany, 931-6; m. Willa.
Liudprand states that Hugo and Boso had the same father ["Boso denique, ex eodem patre regis Hugonis frater, ..." Liudprand, Antapodosis, iii, 47, Dümmler (1877), 75]. For the suggestion that Boso was a son of Thibaud by a woman other than Bertha, see the discussion on the page of
Boso.



Commentary

Conjectured daughter: Ermengarde, m. Berillon, viscount of Vienne.
[Chaume (1925), 1: 545 (table 9)]


Bibliography

Ann. Bertin. = G. Waitz, ed., Annales Bertiniani (MGH SRG 6, Hannover, 1883).

Ann. Vedast. = B. de Simson, ed., Annales Xantenses et Annales Vedastini (MGH SRG 12, 1909), 41-82.

Brandenburg (1964) = Erich Brandenburg, Die Nachkommen Karls des Großen (Frankfurt, 1964).

Cart. Cluny = A. Bernard & A. Bruel, Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny, 6 vols., (Paris, 1876-1903).

Cart. S.-Victor Marseille = M. Guérard, Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Saint-Victor de Marseille, 2 vols. (Paris, 1857).

Chaume (1925) = Maurice Chaume, Les origines du duché de Bourgogne, 4 vols. (Dijon, 1925).

Dümmler (1877) = Ernst Dümmler, ed., Liudprandi episcopi Cremonensis opera omnia (MGH SRG, Hannover, 1877).

Gingins-La-Sarra (1851-3) = Frédéric de Gingins-La-Sarra, "Mémoires pour servir à l'histoire des royaumes de Provence et de Bourgogne-Jurane", Archiv für Schweizerische Geschichte 7 (1851): 85-201; 8 (1851): 3-116; 9 (1853): 85-260.

Hofmeister (1907) = Adolf Hofmeister, "Markgrafen und Markgrafschaften im Italischen Königreich in der Zeit von Karl dem Grossen bis auf Otto den Grossen (774-962)", Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung 7 (1907): 215-435.

MGH SRG = Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum (separate editions).

MGH SS = Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores series.

Poupardin (1901) = René Poupardin, Le royaume de Provence sous les Carolingiens (Paris, 1901).

RHF = Recueil des historiens des Gaules et de la France.

Settipani (1993) = Christian Settipani, La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987 (Première partie - Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens) (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993).

Werner (1967) = Karl Ferdinand Werner, "Die Nachkommen Karls des Großen bis um das Jahr 1000 (1.-8. Generation)", Karl der Große 4 (1967): 403-483.


Compiled by Stewart Baldwin

First uploaded 20 September 2008.

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